Colts Authority reader Music Man wrote an excellent piece defending the retention of Peyton Manning, even if the team intends to draft Andrew Luck. We've brought it to the front page for our readers.
It’s hard to hold on to an idea when everyone tells you you’re nuts. This isn’t the first time, nor will it be the last. I read all I can on a topic. Try to listen to all sides, and then form an opinion. Once in awhile my ideas simply diverge from the group. This is one of those times.
If there is a better than 70% chance Manning can play football again, ever, the Colts need to resign him.
That’s right. I’m the crazy one. I’ve heard it all. “Do you want the Colts to be terrible for the next 5 years?” “You’re just emotionally attached.” “Can’t you see, Irsay and the Colts have already moved on.” I will not go quietly into that good night, and I’ll tell you why.
Let’s start with the obvious. We are not talking about a good QB. We are talking about a guy that everyone knew was headed to Canton early. They’re already talking about light placement so that the glare from his forehead doesn’t temporarily blind someone.
Manning is arguably the greatest QB of all time. He’s also been one of the most durable. He knows how to play through injuries and pain and has on many occasions. By not signing him, the Colts are not giving up on a great QB, they’re giving up on a legend. And by the way, when we last saw Manning play he was carrying this team.
I understand the fears against the Colts retaining Manning. The best ones are the fear of his injury and whether he’ll be able to play and the salary cap issues his contract might cause. I’ll address both at the same time.
The argument goes that since Manning’s cap number is so high, the Colts cannot possibly retain him unless they know for sure he can play. His cap number will kill the team if he isn’t able to play out his contract.
I have news for you all. This team will be terrible without Manning. His cap space isn’t going to make the difference.
I have no idea why I’m the only person that sees this. I guess that most people feel that if Manning can’t play because he’s injured, his cap number will kill the Colts for the next 4 years. No, if Manning can’t play because he’s injured, he’ll retire. His salary number will come off of the books. Only his bonus number will be on the books, and that will go in 1 year.
The year after Manning leaves the Colts, whenever that is, the Colts will not be good. His cap number for that year won’t make a difference because a young QB will be throwing picks and learning the hard knocks of the NFL. As long as his deal goes away after 1 year in cap hell, its worth the risk. This also isn’t addressing that the salary cap will be going up against after next year.
The next argument is about talent. Specifically the talent on the Colts roster. Lets start with the Colts offense.
I don’t claim to be a salary cap guy, so I can’t tell you how they’re going to fill out the roster. I do know this. With the guys the Colts already have under contract for next year on offense, the 2012 offensive roster is just as good as the 2010 roster at every position but WR. If the Colts are able to sign either Garcon or Wayne, they’ll be just as good there as well.
The OL is improved, the RB are at worst equal, TE probably about the same (better if they re-sign Tamme). That offense wasn’t Manning’s best, but it was good enough to get to the playoffs in spite of massive injuries. The offense, if Manning leads it, will be playoff quality next year.
The talent on the Colts defense is much more in question. With the hiring of Pagano it is very tough to see what direction the Colts are headed here.
If the Colts are willing and able to re-sign Mathis the DE are taken care of for a 4-3 D. The LB’s in the 4-3 were descent. The secondary was terrible.
I have no idea of how they fit into a 3-4. But what is really important to understand is that it DOESN’T MATTER. The 3 “best” teams this year, NE, GB, NO were 31, 32, and 24 in total defense. The Giants were 27. The Colts, in this tragic season, were 25. Better than all but 1 of the top 3 teams.
The Colts defense should be better next year. If they aren’t, perhaps Pagano isn’t the defensive coach we thought he was. Remember that Wade Phillips took the Texans from one of the worst D’s in the NFL to one of the best in one year, without an off-season, without much significant talent upgrade, and losing his best defensive player.
The talent on the Colts roster is good enough to get into the playoffs. Once you’re in, if you have a great QB, you have shot to win it all. (Ask the Giants.) If you don’t, you have no chance, even if your team is more talented the the one you’re playing. (Ask the Texans.)
Luck may be great eventually. He won’t be great for at least 2 - 3 years. When he’s ready to be great, Manning will be ready to move on.
The future. “The Colts are ready for the future.” “Luck is ready to play day one.” “New coach, new GM, new QB. They are ready to start over completely.” Heard it. Don’t buy it. It’s fools gold.
Grigson and Pagano would have to be nuts or blind not to want Manning on the Colts. I know, his cap number is an issue. I get that. However, that contract was put together by Bill Polian. He may not be nice, but he’s not an idiot. There was a plan to make it work last year. I’ll bet that Irsay knows it and has shared it.
Putting that aside for now, both Grigson and Pagano have been on the receiving ends of Manning dismantling their team for years. How long has it been since the Ravens have beaten a Manning team? (Dec 2001) Manning is 6-2 vs. the Ravens all time and 3-1 vs. the Eagles. Grigson and Pagano have come in here and said, hard work, together, trust. If they really believe that, no player in the NFL exudes those attitudes more than Manning.
They don’t call the NFL the “Not For Long” league for nothing. If these two new guys want to find their way to the door quickly all they have to do is miss on a first round QB or struggle to develop him or a new offense for a few years. They could both easily be gone before Luck becomes established. (Ask Jim Mora Sr.) Why would you want that when you have the chance to have an NFL legend be your QB?
This is not even bringing up what both men have seen on their previous teams. They have seen the difference in QB play between Flacco, McNabb, and Vick. They are all good. None of them can hold a candle to Manning.
Andrew Luck. I love the idea of cheering for him. Just in a few years from now. All we hear from Kiper and McShay is how awesome he is. Everyone gushes over him. People say look at the success of Matt Ryan, Cam Newton, and Andy Dalton and say that Luck can play now in the NFL. They’re right. But my question is, how many of those teams had another choice?
They didn’t. Starting a rookie is only the best idea, if you don’t have a better option. If you do have one, it’s simply not a great idea. Let him watch and learn how to be a real pro. Then give him a shot.
“But it worked out great for SF and GB to let their stars go.” Yes it did. After each of their replacements had a small internship. Oh wait. They both waited for 3 years! They watched, waited, learned. Once the 49ers and Packers were certain Young and Rodgers were ready, then they released/traded their aging legends.
How did they know they were ready? They saw them in practice, meetings, preseason and injury replacement against real NFL players. As good as the Pac 10 might be, they simply don’t hold a candle to any NFL team.
Don’t reinvent the wheel when we’ve seen 2 great franchises do it the exact same way. Let Luck come in and learn. He’ll be better for off for it and so will the Colts.
The final reason to keep Manning is one I don’t believe more people have noticed and commented on. The only teams not interested in trying to acquire Manning if he’s released by the Colts are teams that already have a ton invested in their current QB. I’ve read that there would be interest from: MIA, NYJ, CLE, DEN, KC, WAS, MIN, ARI, SF, and SEA. That’s nearly a third of the league. The bidding war for Manning will be unlike anything we’ve ever seen in the NFL. If he wants to, Manning will be able to demand a 3 year 100 million contract. He’ll get it too.
If all of those franchises are willing to pony up that kind of money for a CHANCE he’s gonna be healthy, why would the Colts let him go? The NFL is a QB league. The teams listed above are the have nots. They’ll do anything to become the haves.
I know I’m alone on this island. I know in my head, it is likely that the Colts and Manning will part ways. I know the salary cap is problematic, the coaches have changed, Manning isn’t happy, and Irsay isn’t either.
I also know that Manning is not a once in a generation player. He’s a once in a lifetime player. He is THE best option for the Colts to win games. Now, and for at least the next several years if he can play.
If the time comes when he can’t play, or the Colts have a better option at QB, so be it. Until then, I still don’t see why the Colts let him leave.
I disagree that the Texans didnt make significant changes to their D, they signed Jonathan Joesph who was #2 FA CB last season behind Nhamdi. They also drafted JJ WATT and signed tth sefty/KR from teh BEARS (forget his name)
I also think the PAC-12 isnt that good, ESPECIALLY on DEFENSE.
but overall I feel you. If I recall what I read here on this site said we could easily keep them for 2 seasons together before it seriously hurts our cap
I love Kuharsky's patient dismantling of these nutty ideas by a Colts fan in Maryland:
If it wasn't because this scenario involved sitting Luck for multiple years, I would agree. But sitting the 1st overall pick is a waste.
Agreed completely. I've been saying the same thing myself (just not anywhere nearly as articulate or thorough!) I trust the opinions of the people who run ColtsAuthority quite a bit, they've earned it. But I am with you completely on this one.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is no reason Luck can't sit for 3-4 seasons. Manning is a known commodity. If he is healthy, they cannot release him. There is a reason the top QBs are never available. When a team gets them, they are never stupid enough to release them.
Also, the cap wasn't an issue last year when he signed the deal. They knew there was going to be a salary cap in place. Brees and Brady will be about the same against their teams' caps. I don't hear complaints coming from those cities. This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous.
If Peyton were really at 70-80% (whatever as long as he still has laser-rocket capabilities), I would be with you. Great post. I'm honestly torn, though. I know what I want (4 more years of Manning), but I feel the clearest way forward, and the most likely outcome might be parting ways and re-building the team.
I forgot to mention this in my previous post, but your points about the team still having good pieces together on the team is a great one also. The way they have been blowing the team up in the front office, you'd think the Colts have had 5 straight years of losing records. It was only 1 year. Even if one of either Wayne or Garcon is back, the offense is still solid. The defense obviously needs work, but when you have Freeney, Mathis, Angerer, and Bethea to work with, it's not the end of the world either. Again, doesn't mean we are a contender, but we're not at the bottom either as long as there is a QB in place.
Great piece. Even though I don't think the Colts will do what you have proposed, I commend you for basically putting all of my thoughts into writing in one piece. I was holding out hope Manning would be back initially, but the events of the past week have shown me it is likely not happening, and I'm trying to come to terms with it. The biggest question mark right now is his health. If he was healthy, I actually think Irsay would still keep him and make it work. But I don't think there will be any significant improvement in his health between now and March 8th, and that basically makes him a goner.
Rather than challenge the content in this post, I would rather compliment you on your writing. The passion behind your words was palpable; They pulled me a long to the end, forcing me to set aside my own personal opinions.
Good job! I hope to see more of your posts making their way into the archive section.
I've been thinking and hoping this all along and have been totally on the side of keeping him, no matter what, so that Luck can be trained by the best to ever play the game.
Great commentary... I agree 100% with you. Let's hope it works out the way you say and Manning will finish his career in Indy!
Well done. I had categorized "retirement" as a "still screws the team's cap" option, but for only one additional year of sucking, it doesn't seem nearly as bad. Still has consequences on the development of the next regime, of course. The only other issue I would have liked to have seen worked through is the salary cap issue for this year with both QBs. Is that workable for any reason? On the other hand, how much would it have still been in issue in the no-longer-tenable scenario where we trade down a little and grab, say, Blackmon or something? That seemed feasible when things were more hopeful about Manning--were we out to lunch then?
"If there is a better than 70% chance Manning can play football again, ever, the Colts need to resign him."
This right there is the big fundamental flaw in this piece. I don't believe the odds are that high.
I think it has less to do with one losing season and more to do with an aging core of players. Look at the list of guys who are getting older and are free agents or have one year left on their contracts: Manning, Wayne, Clark, Saturday, Diem, Mathis, Freeney, Brackett.
Which is not to say that the team doesn't have younger talent -- they obviously do. It's But that talent is either also reaching free agency (Garcon, Collie) or coming up on it soon. Do you re-sign all the aging vets and let the young guys walk? Or do you let the aging players walk and rebuild the franchise?
I think that's the dilemma more than the one losing season. And it looks like the front office is going to go young and rebuild. And, painful as it will be, it's probably the right move.
@Nate Dunlevy :( What would you put the odds at?
@Neven I think it really helps the Colts that they had this bad season for one reason: The FAs are probably going to be undervalued. Wayne and (especially) Garcon will be, I'm guessing, undervalued since they couldn't put up the better stats they would have had with Manning in there. Same with Mathis.
"We've got a jumper!" Nice.
Glad you'll still be around. Regardless of which conclusion is correct, I appreciate you sharing all that medical research; you made as good a case for the optimistic view as I've seen anywhere. Assuming we eventually learn more specific details about Manning's injury and recovery (?), it'll be interesting to compare it to what you've found. As Goeland said a while back, most of the signs point to him being an outlier case, which is just a new layer of suck on top of all the other suck.
@pierrezombie@Platinum@Nate Dunlevy Thanks PZ. We've got a jumper! lol Very well said. I really appreciate everyone being so gracious about the whole situation. To be honest, I'm pretty new at blogging and that's never happened before. Lesson learned. There are so many awesome people that write and blog on this site. This is my Colts home and I'm gratefull that I didn't ruin that with my comments. I really appreciate your kind words. Thanks again for being so understanding. Even though I've never met any of you in person it means alot.
Holy Bob Zombie! Did we just have a reasoned, sincere and useful reconciliation in a sports comment thread?! Somebody call Guiness!
Seriously, you guys rock. Proof, perhaps, that the unique legacy of 18to88 lives on.
PfP, nice job coming back from the ledge. I thought we'd lost you for good yesterday, and that would have been a bummer. DZ, thanks for explaining the inside/outside sources thing in a way that finally doesn't make my brain hurt, and for sharing your feelings about all this so honestly. And Platinum, I think you're onto something here. There's a good chance that, for many of us, the people we're closest to won't really understand what it will mean to us if Manning has to retire now. But most of the people here already do.
@Platinum Thanks. I think that is something we can all agree on.
@Peyton for President No hard feelings. I hope I'm wrong too.
For what it's worth I 100% understand where you are coming from, why you care, why you got mad, all of it.
I'd feel exactly the same way. I mostly felt bad for you, because my heart is broken over the whole thing too. It sucks, horribly.
I hope you get proven right.
@Nate Dunlevy Thanks for the reply and apology. You didn't have to do that. I was the one who started flinging personal attacks. It was immature and wrong. It is a very emotional topic and I let my anger get the best of me. I attacked the writer rather than the substance. Wrong, wrong wrong. I said things that I didn't mean to bring you to my level of being pissed. in doing so I made myself look like a dumbass. You didn't need to. I still hope you're wrong, but I appreciate everything you said. Sorry dude.
@Peyton for President I'm sorry. Honestly. I'm wasn't trying to be mean about this.
The point I've been trying to make is that I DO have inside information, but it's the SAME as the outside information. I know that was confusing. I'm sorry for that. That's my fault. My information informs me as to which of the reports I put stock in, rather than provides me different information than everyone else has.
I've been trying to say that yes, I've heard he's done. However, nothing I've heard is all that different than what has been reported. It IS different than two things: 1. what doctors have said on TV and 2. some reports in December about his workout (specifically the 90% report).
I've been trying not to use 'inside information' as a hammer. I've been trying to say that the public information is the same, but you have to have been listening for it.
I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to help fans understand why I sat at my desk and cried two months ago. I don't believe he's coming back. It seems very unlikely. None of the physician reports on ESPN are germane at all on any level. It's not science I'm debating at all. It's the completely uninformed opinions of TV medics who don't know how he's really doing.
I don't know that we actually disagree all that much about where he is now. You just keep saying, 'the doctors say he'll be fine!'. I'm just trying to tell you that no one close to the situation actually believes that. I'm also trying to help you understand that there is no evil conspiracy here. It's not "hey, we have Luck, let's find and excuse to dump Peyton". I can see why you'd say that if you believed the doctors.
Just know that the people around the team HONESTLY don't believe it. If they did, this would be a much much different discussion.
I'm really sorry. I made this harder than I should have. I should have been more clear that I had sources, but you don't need them to hear the truth. In some ways, it's easier for me now because other reporters are finally stating exactly what I've been saying for months. No one knows for sure, but it just looks really, terribly bad, and doesn't look any better now than it did last September. That's the key point: no real progress. At least not enough to get hopes up.
@Nate Dunlevy I really had no plans to continue this with you and this will be my last comment directly to you. You've pushed me into the corner of extremism and continued to put words in my mouth. Maybe that's why I would make the assumption that you don't understand the medical side. You can't seem to understand me let alone medical reports. You said above that I remain certain that Manning will return. Never said that, not once. It's not "my science" it's just science. And I never said peolpe are fools for listening to the doctors that treated Manning. That's just you trying to make me sound retarded. I NEVER put a % on his return. YOU DID. Yet when I counter with something a doctor said within the last couple days that contradicts what you said, I'm the tool. Maybe if you weren't so patronizing from the jump I wouldn't have been such a dik. Your not just a blogger. You're a trusted voice for many in the Colts community. That's why I feel it is grossly irresponsible for you to put a % on it. When we had this last go round on The Last Four Years Come at a Price, other people commented that you must have inside information to have this opinion. You said nothing. You let people assume that was the case. When you now say this is all public info for anyone who is willing to look honestly at the situation, I felt that by not saying that two weeks ago in our first convo you were letting people assume that you had access to info that you don't. If that's the case I think it is BS, and that's part of the reason I attacked you. Now why I felt your comments were patronizing, you never personally attacked me. For that I was wrong an I apologize. You don't owe me an apology so don't think I expect one. I fully understand I struck below the belt first, but BOTH of us could have handled this very differently.
@keep_the_eraser I completely understand your point and agree to a certain extent. I do think the info is relevent, but I also understand it is incomplete. I'm just trying to counter some of the negativity out there because I'm still hopefull. Even Bill Polian said the doc expected the nerve to fully heal, but nobody can put a time frame on it. When Rob Lowe is tweeting things that set the media on fire, and John Clayton is reporting that Manning is going to retire because of someone with a "gut" feeling that talked to Peter King. I just figured it couldn't hurt to inject a little logic into the debate. Let me make one thing clear. I am not sure about Peyton's future, not at all. Only an idiot would be. Nobody knows yet everyone has an opinion. It's just really frustrating. Just the way I'm wired makes me still trust any doctor over a "gut" feeling or a tweet from Rob Lowe. The very first post I left on this site in The Last Four Years Come at a Price regarding the medical issues ended with "We all just need to wait and see". I still feel that way today. Last night before the Pro Bowl when Peter King said what he said, my heart dropped, it really did but I'm not gonna forget everything else I know. Until Peyton says he's done, I'm going to hold out hope that he will return.
@Peyton for President @Platinum What I would do in terms of the medial issue is base an opinion off of someone with total knowledge of the situation, which would be Manning, his Drs, and probably some of the colts organization. You can draw an opinion from whomever you want. I choose to draw an opinion from those who know the entire health of Manning. You share an opinion of Dr who do not know the entire situation, nothing wrong with that but that doesn't make it right either. Lets say I go to a Dr and diagnosed with cancer. That Dr explains to me fully about the type of cancer, the origin, every bit of info about it. He says I have a 10% chance to live. I call another Dr and tell him I have cancer and have a 10% chance to live. That Dr would want to fully examine me before drawing a different conclusion. Does he hqve to examine me to draw a conclusion? Absolutely not. Should I listen to that Dr knowing he doesn't have all the info to draw a conclusion? You are correct about you can never have too much info but the Dr you reference don't have all that info needed to guage Manning.
@Platinum The only reason that I even mentioned Dr Kaplan is cause Nate said if he was close to 70% then we might have something to talk to about but NOBODY was willing to give it those type of odds. Well, Dr Kaplan might not be Peyton's doc but he is somebody. For some reason when I mentioned it the two of you assumed I was basing my entire opinion on what he said. The smoking gun for you and Nate is that Irsay wouldn't be rebuilding if Peyton was healthy. I don't think that is necessarily true, and to make assumptions on that and that alone is naive. I don't believe there can ever be too much information. I've just tried to inject some relevent scientific info into the debate. Did I ever claim to care about Peyton more than anyone else? Did I ever claim to know more than the team? I don't believe I did. Everyone that shares my opinion seems to carry the title of doctor. 80%-90% of what I've said is the shared opinion of the medical community. The rest is my opinion about what it means in relation to Manning. Nobody on this site has actually said "no you're wrong, now let me explain why". "You misinterpreted this, let me explain".Everyone that has an opposing view just rejects what I've said and assumes I'm just a hardcore Manning lover that can't let go. I'm sorry but I find it quite insulting. If you don't like what I write, don't read it. I'm entitled to my opinion as are you. If you'de like to explain why I'm wrong in medical terms, i'm all ears.
Mwah mwah. Nate, I just kissed your ass there unfortunately it doesnt taste as good as 18's so I'll stick to kissing his lol.
With all your reports from left and right, you still don't have the common sense to realize that in most medical cases, every case is unique, Dr. Kaplan has not looked at Manning, he has no knowledge of the case so he can only speak from theory. If there was a 90% chance 18 would be back, he'd be signed sealed and delivered and this discussion would be a nonstarter. You're thinking for yourself, you're just not doing a very good job of it. Listen to what the team is saying, they care more and know more about their QB than you do, they have access to better reports than you do. Listen to what Manning is NOT saying. If all else fails, shut the hell up and watch and wait like the rest of us.
@Dezznutz1001 I know your new to this convo so I'm not going to be rude. I fully understand that this is a nerve issue. But to say that the fusion was never an issue is flat out wrong. I've said this before but I'll say it again. There were two issues that would force Peyton to retire. One is if the neck didn't fuse. His neck doesn't fuse, case closed, Peyton is done. His neck is fused so it is no longer the issue. The second issue would be that if the nerve was so badly damaged that it won't ever heal or would take more than a year to fully heal. Here is why I don't think this is the case. The nerve in question is called the radial nerve. The radial nerve is one of many peripheral nerves, more specifically the C7 peripheral nerve. Now we know that the nerve damage was cased by a herniated disk between the C7 and C8 vertebrae. Knowing the damage was caused from the herniation we know the damage is close to the spine. If the damage was so severe that it had choked off the ability to send signals through the axons and into the muscle, then his tricep would be paralyzed and atrophy. When a nerve has been cut or damaged this severely the nerve dies off from the point furthest away from the spine to the place where the injury occured. It's called wallerian degeneration. It's only after this has taken place that the nerve will begin to regenerate. Knowing that the damage to the nerve is so close to the spine we know if this was the case then we would be waiting for the entire nerve to regenerate and his tricep would still be paralyzed. In cases such as this your talking 1-3 years minimum, possibly never for the nerve to fully regenerate. Peyton is dealing with weakness in his tricep. Not a paralyzed tricep. This means while the nerve hasn't fully healed it is sending signals through the axons inside the nerve to the muscle. It's just a reason to be hopefull. Nothing more. No guarantee, no promises. Just relevent info that leads me to believe Peyton should be able to make a full recovery. The thing about nerve regeneration is it is almost invariably slow. There is nothing suprising about the amount of time it is taking for Peyton's nerve to heal. This is normal. If Peyton can't return it would be the exception rather than the norm. That has been my point from the beginning.
@Platinum Your willingness to treat Nates opinions as gospel is equally as stunning. When did this turn into a who loves Peyton Manning more argument? Cobbled up, uneducated reports? LMAO! My information comes from The American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, The Department of Neurological Surgery at Columbia University Medical Center and many other very respected sources. Did you really think I was just pulling this stuff out of my ass? I've NEVER said it was a guarantee Peyton would return. NEVER. I'm simply trying to explain why the prognosis was never as grim as Nate and many others seem to think. You trust Bill Polian? Go listen to the interview with Mike and Mike. He said that the docs expect the nerve to fully regenerate, they just couldn't say when. Not random doctors but the ones treating Peyton. This has nothing to do with my love for Peyton Manning. It has everything to do with my understanding of the injury, the surgery, expected recovery, and peripheral nerve damage. ALL of which is relevent. So once again, I have NO guarantees, just relevant facts, all of which are backed up by modern medical science. Quit trying to kiss Nate's ass and think for yourself.
ugh, Global Warming IS a fraud. I've done the footwork and the reading up on it by scientists whose research has proven it to be a fraud and I believe its a product of PURE propaganda. Just like i believe you think you understand the whole Peyton situation, though Im not sure if you do.
The Spinal Fusion wasnt the real problem, the spinal fusion is to make up for the disc they removed. The problem lies in the re-generation of the nerve. And its not happening fast enough cuz March 8th is less than 6 weeks away ;(
Dude. I'm telling you what his actual situation based on both reported knowledge by others, public statements, and personal information. It's the most accurate possible picture of what Manning's current state is and his actual chances of getting better.
I'm not make assumptions. I'm telling you how everyone close to the Colts views his health and why. You are telling me what doctors who have never examined him are saying.
I'm not making any assumptions. I'm telling you exactly why people are doing what they are doing. There are zero assumptions involved in this.
Jim Irsay loves Peyton Manning. That's not an assumption.
Jim Irsay is willing to part with Manning only because he does not believe he's healthy nor can anyone say with any reliability that he ever will be again. That's not an assumption.
You are the one making assumptions. You assume people are idiots for not caring about your 'science'. You assume people with the Colts who listen to doctors who ACTUALLY TREATED MANNING are fools for not listening to some guy ESPN slapped on TV.
You have less actual knowledge of this situation than just about anyone. You need to stop and listen for once.
You are just wrong. @Peyton for President
@Peyton for President@Nate Dunlevy Peyton for President. Your unwillngness to consider that other people may be right is stunning. I guess you love Peyton Manning more than the man who gave him the keys to his franchise, the man who paid him a whole season to cheerlead. I guess you have inside knowledge of the situation uh? Sorry, I'll trust what Irsay and Polian say and what Peyton himself isnt saying before I trust any cobbled up, uneducated reports you want to peddle as fact. Use the grey atter every once in a while, you don't love Peyton more than anyone else on this site and certainly not more than the team's owner.
@Nate Dunlevy I'm not going to cut your comments apart and continue to explain why you are wrong. I've already done that enough for one lifetime. I'm stating facts, backed up by science. You're making assumptions based on Irsays actions and you are far too dense to see that. My research is worthless. Oh brother. I know, researching the surgery and peripheral nerves is comepletey irrelevent. What's next? You gonna tell me evolution and global climate change are just giant hoaxes concocted by the scientific community? Is the world really only 6000 years old? Dinosaurs were planted by the evil paleontologists? I'll continue to trust modern science and medicine, you can continue to have faith in Irsay. All you are doing is backing up the franchises decision to cut Peyton Manning because rich daddy Irsay wants a new toy to play with. The new toy is Andrew Luck. You'll write articles after March 8 about how Irsay had no choice but to cut Peyton, and how this proves you were right all along. The thing is, I won't be reading it. I lost all respect for your opinions and am honestly embarrased to share a love for the same team as you. I certainly won't be reading your book or anything else you write, unless it's written on toliet paper, and I'm really starting to wonder why I even waste my time on a site that has you on the payroll. I wouldn't trade all your scientific knowledge for a warm cup of piss. "I'm not an idiot". Well sir, I guess we can agree to disagree. This is Peyton for President signing out.....For good.... Back to reality. See ya.
@pierrezombie@peyton 1. "For example, you say he had the surgery "because Manning couldn't feel his arm." It's entirely possible that was reported in a sourced bit of journalism, but if so I missed it. Can you link to something that says that specifically?"
I personally reported it in my piece announcing Manning's surgery. He had numbness in his triceps. The Triceps muscle was not responding. That has been reported many places, and that's what I was referring to when I said, "he can't feel his arm".
I'm not saying "listen to sources not tightly connected". I'm saying DO listen to the sources tightly connected and stop listening to doctors giving opinions when they haven't seen the patient and have no access to his records.
Listen carefully to what Polian said last Wednesday...it's in there. Read carefully Peyton's words. Irsay's words. It's in there.
No one talks about WHEN Peyton is ready to play. They are all still talking about if. This 90% stuff is nonsense. If there was a 90% chance Peyton was going to be healthy in 2012, we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
@Peyton for President@Nate Dunlevy 1. I never said his neck was fine. You said "his neck is fine and the problem has been fixed". I replied that "he is not fine and the problem has not been fixed". I never said his neck wasn't fine. I disputed your assertion that his neck was the problem. The problem is the nerves in his arm. They are not fine and have not been fixed. I've not been inconsistent on this at all.
2. I've done plenty of research and I understand it. I also know that the vast majority of what is being said by doctors is not actually speaking to the exact situation that Manning is suffering from. I also know that no one close to the team (who is privy to Manning's ACTUAL medical reports and condition, which you are not) is nearly as optimistic as talking head doctors on ESPN, despite the fact that they all respect Manning way more than you can imagine.
You aren't listening to what I'm saying. You keep going back to your 'research' which is quite literally worthless. It's of zero value in this case. Manning's actual doctors have no time frame or due date on his recovery yet you remain convinced he's going to be healthy and play again.
The team would love to have a healthy Peyton Manning back. They have every reason to believe that may never happen, or at least not with any degree of certainty or time frame.
I'm not an idiot. I have access to all the information you have and then some. I understand it perfectly well. I'm telling you there is no credible reason to be optimistic about Manning's situation based on where he was a month ago. Where he was a month ago was actually quite depressing and has lead to where we find ourselves now.
You keep saying you have no faith in Irsay, but if there is anything you should trust (and anyone who knows anything will tell you the same) it's that the man adores Peyton Manning. You'll never hear anyone say differently. If Irsay thought there was any reasonable chance that Manning would be healthy, Manning would be back.
His actions are the best evidence of all of what I've been saying for months. He's got all the facts and stronger biases in favor of Manning than you or I.
@Peyton@Nate Dunlevy for President @Goéland.
Nate, I'm very deliberately trying not to drink the optimism Kool-Aid on Manning's potential recovery. I want to see this issue as clearly as you say we should be able to. But I'm still seeing the disconnect Goeland mentioned above with regards to the difference between what you say is publicly reported and the conclusions you're drawing from it.
For example, you say he had the surgery "because Manning couldn't feel his arm." It's entirely possible that was reported in a sourced bit of journalism, but if so I missed it. Can you link to something that says that specifically?
If not, that would be an example of a conclusion you've come to that's not as obvious as you make it sound.
I understand why you're cautioning us against optimism, and sayg notmto listen to sources who aren't tightly connected to the situation. But I still don't see how it is simple as those who don't share your conclusions just "massively misreading the coverage". Anything you can add to close the gap?
@Nate Dunlevy And I know that other people on this site probably will stay out of this because they like and respect you. But anyone who cares to take a look and see, go look at the article where Nate compares Barry Larkin's career to Peyton's. Read our back and forth. I said his neck was fine. You jumped down my throat for saying that. Then by the end of your argument you changed your opinion. My statements have NEVER changed. Your's conveniently changes to fit your argument. I'm chasing a moving target arguing with you. You took a position in September and are saying anything you can to make everyone believe you knew what you were talking about and it's f-ing embarrassing. Absolutely f-ing pathetic.
@18to88 I feel like I would have a better chance of explaining quantum physics to my dog than making you understand my point. The fact that you write as a proffesion, yet haven't done enough research, or simply can't understand the information when you read it is embarrassing. I'm done arguing with someone who has an elementary at best understanding of science. Even if you are right and Manning can't return. Which I've never said was a guarantee. You're still wrong in your gross misunderstanding of the medical issues.
@keep_the_eraser "All these reports by experts and medical Dr are somewhat irrelevent because they don't know the full situation and won't unless Manning wants them to"."Nate you are entirely correct, if everyone would read and absord what Manning has said it's all right there"......Now do I REALLY have to point out the GLARING contradiction in your statement? Do I really? Same thing Nate said. All the information is right there in front of everyone to see..........Uh except for all the orthopedic surgeons that have publicly made statements......Those guys are stuck in a bubble.
@Nate Dunlevy Agree, again. We won't know everything until Manning tells us. HIPAA laws won't allow anyone to say anything but Manning. All these reports by experts and medical Dr are somewhat irrelevant because they don't know the full situation and won't unless Manning wants them too. Why has there not been a statement released by Manning's Dr? Because he can't say anything without Manning saying he can do to HIPAA. All the talk from other Dr is just speculation because they don't have entire knowledge of the situation. Nate, you are entirely correct, if everyone would read and absorb what Manning has said its all right there.
@Peyton for President Goeland, the neck FUSION was never really the issue. That surgery took place to allow him to regain feeling in his arm. People are basing their opinions on recovery rates to THAT surgery which can take place for a variety of reasons. The reason they had it done in this case is because Manning couldn't feel his arm. That is and has always been the issue.
I think you guys are all massively misreading the coverage, that's all. You all have focused on the wrong part of what's wrong with him. I'm not breaking any news that's not out there.
Things aren't worse than has been reported, because this stuff has been reported. Some people just don't want to listen to it or believe it, and prefer to rely on the opinions of doctors who have no actual knowledge of the situation.
@Peyton for President You're right. I'm just crazy. Go on believing whatever you want.
I have a lot of trouble imagining you reporting this lightly, so my conclusion is that you have some inside info that supports this narrative. I know you can´t be on the record for things that don´t meet ColtsAuthority´s editorial standards (which I´m assuming are exactly the same as 18to88´s), so I don´t expect you to offer definitive statements, but I think understanding this is necessary to explain the disconnect between your warnings and what people who have parsed out all public statements about Manning and examined them under a medical light believe. Scientific knowledge based on what we know indeed backs up a more positive outlook on things, as LovinBlue´s "In the Training Room" post and Peyton For President´s comments attest. Therefore, there must be something significant that we don´t know, that has been carefully kept from the public.
@Nate Dunlevy@Peyton for President Nate, this comment of yours is really suprising. We know that specific surgery has generally a great prognosis. My biggest fear since day 1 has always been that for some reason, Peyton has an innate problem with nerve regeneration, making his recovery (which would happen in almost all cases of this surgery without a hitch) a very doubtful event. I mean, with everything that´s happening, the same way we know Freeney is a freak who heals like Wolverine, it´s clear Peyton´s nerve regeneration is very slow. But what you seem to imply, and it´s been like this for weeks, is that there´s a possibility his nerve simply won´t heal, not in the next two weeks and maybe not in the next year, and that would indicate a specific innate medical condition (which would only strengthen my conviction that Peyton´s situation was mishandled from a medical point of view, but let´s leave that matter for another discussion).
Thus, when you write that the neck injury was never the real problem, and that "you have to realize that everyone involved has ALREADY compensated for the fact that Peyton Manning is a freak when they are giving their prognosis. The only reason anyone still thinks it's possible at all is BECAUSE it's Peyton Manning" (that passage majorly freaked me out when I first read it, by the way), it´s only understandable, I think, in the context I´m evoking, which is that Peyton has a relatively uncommon medical condition, and that is not something which has been reported widely by media sources. THAT has not been established as fact publicly, which is, I think, the reason for Peyton for President´s vehement disagreement with you.
@Nate Dunlevy Dr. Kaplan said this within the last couple days. So before all the information was right there for anyone to see, but now any doctor with an opinion is in a "vacuum with no specific knowledge of the situation"? "The reason it was necessary was not".What? He had the surgery because of a herniated disk applying pressure on his radial nerve. Peyton had a foraminotomy on May 23 to relieve pressure on the nerve. The surgery was either unsuccessful or he had a setback at somepoint there after. What you said makes no sense. "The neck fusion was never the issue". That's actually quite funny. I remember during our last back and forth I said "Peytons neck is fine". and you jumped down my throat. Now it was "never the issue". I like how you keep moving the target. Two things that would end Peyton's career, the fusion not taking hold and the nerve being so damaged that it would never heal. But you're right it was "never the issue". Peyton's nerve was never damaged to the point where it wasn't firing into the muscle. His muscle would be paralyzed. Not weak, paralyzed. If this was the case he wouldn't be able to throw a football. YOU are missing my point and YOU are 100000% wrong. And I did, just to make sure I wasn't misspeaking, listen to the Mike and Mike Bill Polian interview. At absolutely no point did he say Peyton wasn't close or that he wouldn't be able to return. The thing he really drilled home was that nobody could predict when the nerve would fully heal. He did say that it was the Drs. expectation is that it would heal, but he couldn't say when. None of the doom and gloom you described. It's funny right at the end you say "It's all out there you just don't want to see it". It really must be an airtight vacuum these doctors are in. You'de think they'de look at all these facts before going public with these outrageous claims. Quite frankly I don't care what you think at this point. Some of your comments regarding the medical issues are spectacularly stupid and it's become crystal clear that you are out of your league in all matters of science.
@Peyton for President 1. Dr. Kaplan? When? Back in September? Your mistake is listening to Doctors giving opinions in a vacuum with no specific knowledge of the situation. This surgery may be routine but the reason it was necessary was NOT.
2. The neck fusion was never the issue. The fact that it completed is irrelevant to what we are discussing.
3. "he has been cleared to throw". He was cleared to throw back in August too. You are missing the point. He is throwing. He was throwing before the September surgery. That means nothing.
4. Polian said this past week that Manning isn't healthy, isn't close and no one knows when and if he'll ever return, so what the frick are you talking about?
5. "Peyton WOULD NOT be throwing a football if his nerve hadn't regenerated enough to allow the tricep muscle to fire. Period." This is flat wrong. Absolutely 100000% wrong. He was throwing the football in August and the triceps wasn't firing. So why would you associate him throwing now with progress?
You have to realize that everyone involved has ALREADY compensated for the fact that Peyton Manning is a freak when they are giving their prognosis. The only reason anyone still thinks it's possible at all is BECAUSE it's Peyton Manning.
Go back and listen to what Polian said this week. Go read carefully what Peyton himself said.
It's all out there. You just don't want to believe it.
@Nate Dunlevy Let me address the the simplest issues first. One you obviously have way more faith in Jim Irsay than I do. "I don't think anyone is willing to give it those odds". Dr Michael Kaplan just gave him a 90% chance to return. But I guess he's just a nobody stupid doctor. "I know you think he did, but there was a reason that the doctors shut him down after that work out". You have absolutely no idea what I think but I guess that was my point from the beginning, you assume too much. I never once said I believed he was held out of practice even though he was ready. I'm not a frickin idiot. "Absolutely nothing has changed since I reported that back in September". Well let's see here. His neck wasn't fused until December. He wasn't able to throw in September.He's been cleared to throw. He's been cleared for the weight room. Bill Polian said as of a month ago he was still making progress. But all that to you equals "nothings changed" I've taken a very honest look at this entire situation. Detail by detail. If you at any point expected Peyton to hold a press conference to announce he has a little more zip on the ball then you are the one not honestly looking at this entire situation. Peyton WOULD NOT be throwing a football if his nerve hadn't regenerated enough to allow the tricep muscle to fire. Period. ALOT has changed since September. How can you possibly not see this?
@Peyton@Nate Dunlevy for President Completely agree Nate. Irsay would not give up on him if he could play. Why would he? He kept Sanders through the injuries there is no reason to think he would not do the same for Manning.
@Peyton for President I'm sure it has been decided.
The reason is because he's not even close. HE WON'T SAY HE'S CLOSE. Peyton Manning has given you absolutely zero reason to believe he's any thing resembling healthy.
Before the recent surgery everyone knew this had the potential to be career threatening. Absolutely nothing has changed since I reported that back in September.
Irsay loves Peyton, man. He loves him. He was willing to way further out on a ledge for him than anyone else would.
The fact that even Mr. Irsay has made up his mind tells you EVERYTHING you need to know about this situation.
You can bet on Peyton all you want. I expect him to come back again some day. I just don't expect it to be any time soon. There's certainly nothing resembling the kind of certainty I'd need in order to risk the future of my franchise over it.
If he was 70% likely to come back, we'd maybe have a discussion. I don't think anyone is willing to give it those kind of odds.
Consider this: Indy left him on the roster all year, hoping he'd be able to practice by the end of the season. He never even came close to that. I know you think he did, but there's a reason the doctors shut him down after that work out.
You don't need sources or rumors to tell you. All the facts are there plain as day. Nothing I hear is any different from what everyone can see if they are willing to be honest about it.
I don't know 100% he's done. No one does. But all he'd have to do to diffuse this is to say, "Hey, I'm pretty close to healthy!" or even "I'm absolutely going to play next year".
I hope I'm wrong. I've hoped I was wrong since early September. I hoped i was wrong in December when I started warning people not to get their hopes up. I hoped I was wrong when I told people not get over happy about the crazy 'work out'.
There has been nothing, and I mean NOTHING, that makes me feel one iota better about his health situation. There is no accurate news either public or private that should give any comfort to this situation.
There's no scheme here. There's no agenda.
Everyone loves Peyton. Everyone wants him back.
@Nate Dunlevy Unless you're personally working out with Peyton or dating his doctor, I can't understand how you seem so sure of your opinions. Why were you scared Irsay would sign Peyton if he wasn't healthy? Who in the world would expect him to do that? If I were you I'd stay away from Vegas. If I'm betting. I'm betting on Manning. All in..... Every single time. It's almost insulting that you believe Peyton isn't even close. Why would he be mad if he isn't even close? He's mad because Irsay moved on long before he knew whether Peyton could play. The decision isn't going to be made on March 8. It's already been decided.
@Peyton for President Nope. You couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe you should consider that no one would be doing this unless they had to. I was honestly scared they wouldn't cut him when it was painfully obvious they had no real choice. He's not close. If I had to bet, I bet on a retirement, at least for a year.
@Nate Dunlevy Nate if you're basing your opinion on rumors coming from the Colts, can you at least admit there is a possibility that those rumors being put out there to justify the decision that already seems to have been made about Peyton being a Colt?
@Platinum Less than 50/50.