@Nate Dunlevy@DougEngland@Peyton for President

Dammit, Nate -- you finally got to me. Now I can't read stuff like this quote from today's ESPN Peyton story without inferring the worst:

"I know he wants to play," Reginelli said. "I think if he has a little sliver of daylight, he would probably give it a lot of thought. Peyton, even in college and high school, set certain goals. I'm sure his goal wasn't to stop playing now. He's going to talk to all his doctors, and I'm sure he'll make the right decision."

Reginelli then said he had to go. He couldn't say anymore. He didn't want to get himself in trouble."

I suppose knowing the likely truth is better than clinging to the unlikely fantasy, but still... Ugh.

@DougEngland Yes, I watched both parts. I guess that's my question: when Manning said he was there because it was a Gatorade event, is that the full truth? Or was the interview, at least to some degree or other, contrived to let him fill some of that two weeks of empty airtime with his latest volley in the media war with Irsay?

The fact that he said it in the context of trying to change the line of questioning makes me suspicious. And given the depths of PR spin that both sides have sunk to recently, I'm not inclined to just take his word for it.

I don't know if there's a way to confirm it or not; I'll go do some Googleing...

(Sorry I was so unclear the first time.)

@pierrezombie If you watched the whole interview (It was in two parts) Peyton says this was a scheduled Gatorade event. And that is why Wingo was there as well.

This is not to say that Peyton didn't use the event to his advantage. He certainly did. But let's be realistic. There is two weeks of Super Bowl hype, and every year it dissolves into complete tripe because there is just not enought to keep it going for this length of time.

But this time, there was a rreal story with Peyton. It was just impossible for it not to be addressed.

@Peyton for President@Nate Dunlevy@DougEngland

To spin the issue of Manning's veracity in a slightly different direction, in that interview with ESPN, when he got frustrated with Wingo's persistent questions about his health, he said something like, 'I'm just here to talk about Gatorade and blah blah [sales pitch] blah."

Which got me wondering: was that interview part of a previously arranged deal with his sponsor, something he was contractually required to do during SB week? If so, that puts his appearance directly in the spotlight in a different... uhm... light. If he had to be there, and was trying to focus the attention on the game and be a good host for the city, then great. That fits with my image of him.

But if not -- if he and his PR crew chose that time and place to give his biggest interview of the season and broadcast his message to the league -- then the fact he readily went with a big diversionary tactic to squirm away from the hard questions is a lot less commendable. In that case, he lied about why he was doing the interview and got caught trying to have it both ways at once.

@pierrezombie and everyone else in on this. Everyone has made good points. I think I have, Nate has, and you guys just did as well. All of what has been said is part of the story. It's all relevent. Everyones interpretation of the facts is going to be a little different. I certainly don't have all the answers. I know that. My most recent optimism comes from what Peyton said. I'm not willing to call him a lier. It's that simple for me. One thing I feel almost certain of is this. Peyton wants nothing more than to return to football. Peyton is very very smart. Because of this I don't think he would be going against anything the doctors have told him. If he's throwing, the doctors have told him he's not putting his career in jeopardy. Because this was an issue over last summer is all the more reason that I think they would be being extra catious this time around. I can't prove it and I can't be 100%, but I believe it. That prior knowledge is part of the reason that I feel throwing the football was good news. Why would throwing be part of rehab if there was a major risk involvded? There are plenty of other ways to gain strength and condition the effected muscles without taking such an obvious risk. If evidence arises that that is not the case. I'll admit I was wrong. And yes I do know that his # of throws is being limited,but that would be expected. It is clear Manning isn't 100% probably not 90%. How close to that is really what this is all about. I know looking at this from a fiscal view, Irsay's decision is easy. You just don't give a guy 28mil if he's not 100%. Duh, but this isn't just some guy. It's Peyton Manning. If this was handled properly we wouldn't have anything to talk about until March 8. All the leaked info is what started this media shitstorm, and that is what got us going. It's clear Peyton wanted to play for the Colts. To me, it seems a little less clear whether Irsay wanted Peyton to come back after locking up that first pick. I know if I'm Jim Irsay and Peyton tells me he's confident he'll be back. I'm going to explore all my options. From were I'm sitting it seems like Peyton has said that, but Irsay didn't really want to hear it. It just would have been nice if Irsay would have at least acted like he was going to wait until the deadline to make a decision. His mind seems made up, and it has been for a while. You don't write off Peyton Manning until you have to. If I ever seem frustrated at Irsay that is why. So many things could have been handled very differently.

@Nate Dunlevy@DougEngland@Peyton for President

Also, to some of the points debated above, these quotes from Condon in a Star article from Saturday seem noteworthy:

How long before Manning's comeback is complete?

"I don't have any idea," Condon said.

What percentage is Manning?

"I don't know that there's any way to quantify that or measure it," Condon said.

That's his agent talking -- the guy who gets paid only when Manning gets paid. The guy who should be honking the optimism horn for all he's worth. I mean, if Manning is legitimately anywhere north of, say, 60%, doesn't his agent say so to anyone who will listen during Superbowl week? Instead he basically takes the fifth.

And if Manning's "close enough" that the Colts should pay the $28M, why is he announcing to every other team in the league that he'll play for a virtually risk-free contract?

I suppose all that's pretty obvious if you've already come to grips with what's about to happen. But I'm still working on it.

@pierrezombie@DougEngland@Peyton for President You nailed it. He's a fanatic. He's unlike anyone has ever been. He's going to work his way through this...even if he can't. That's worth worrying about.

@Nate Dunlevy@DougEngland@Peyton for President

Doug & DZ,

Interesting. Interesting... thanks. Even if that's not the correct interpretation -- and I'm afraid it is -- it makes me feel a little less schizophrenic about this issue.

I could certainly see it as an overlay to Manning's interview with Trey Wingo last week. That piercing, uncompromising stare -- that's a guy who would rather rip his arm off at the shoulder and use it to bat the ball downfield than just give up and retire. (Or spend yet another year waiting and watching film while he ages.)

@DougEngland@pierrezombie@Peyton for President Yes, that's all correct. Manning was beginning to injure himself back in August. He can only rehab according to what his body will let him, but he wants to go all out. Everyone should worry about him pushing too hard, too fast and really hurting himself in the process, especially as it drags on.

If the nerves never really recover, or not fully, he could risk serious physical damage by trying to play/rehab through it. Even if he can get some semblance of his arm back, it doesn't mean it's the healthy or right choice.

Real recovery is simply not guaranteed. It could happen for sure. It's even probable in the long term. But if he tries to get back too soon, or tries to be ready for 2012, he could risk screwing something else up. Everyone is right to be concerned about Manning's long term health apart from the stability of his neck.

Again, much of this was reported by John Clayton back in August/September, but I think people have forgotten that aspect of it.

He's already been where he is now once before, and it didn't go well.

@pierrezombie@Peyton for President Yes,you are on the right track. Think more along the lines of Peyton wanting to rehab by putting in hard work and Irsay is truly concerned right now that without the nerve regeneration being far enough along, that he is permantently hurting himself.. (Shoulder, rotor etc.) He is not trying to mislead about the on-field safety issues.

(Sorry to be cryptic, but I learned this in confidence and don't know how much I can say.) But I did want to say something, because I didn't understand the comments Irsay was making myself.

@Nate Dunlevy@Peyton for President "Flash forward to this month and Irsay is talking about Manning's health. You ASSUME he was talking about post-fusion neck issues."

So Nate, reading between the lines here a little... Are you saying the when Irsay comes out and says he's worried about Manning's long term health, that it's sincere? Along the lines of "I'm afraid he'll permanently hurt himself trying to rehab to make the deadline" or something?

I've been assuming it was just the opposite: a disingenuous PR move, helping to pre-emptively build the case for releasing him.

@Nate Dunlevy As far as who's spinning what. Both sides are. That much is obvious. I don't think that Irsay is evil or anything. I think he made a business decision about the direction of his franchise. He has every right to do so. I only disagree with the timing of it and think he's handled it poorly. Here's one example. If Irsay was being honest and really hoping Peyton could return. Why would he fire Torine without having a replacement? I think that could have waited. The Colts were one of the most tight lipped fanchises in sports. Now info is being leaked left and right, and with all the firings that have taken place, Manning probably doesn't have alot of people around that he trusts. Irsay started this war of words by allowing his staff to leak info. Manning was quietly going about his rehab until the Colts turned into Wikileaks. Peyton responded. He hasn't handled everything perfect by any means, but I am more sympathetic to his position. He went from being the face of the franchise to someone that it seemed like the Colts would rather have quietly go away. I'd be a little bitter too. Did Peyton's health play a factor in all this. Yes it did. But there are other factors at play as well. The biggest one other than health is having the #1 pick in the draft. Peyton's health was anything but certain when Irsay started the new era talk. The Colts having the first pick was certain. There is no way to convince me that health was the only issue. Irsay's comments have been anything but consistent. I could continue on, but I won't. I actually kinda agree with Platinum. Let's just wait and see. The only thing I know is certain, is nothing is certain. It's been your certainty on the subject that keeps me going round and round. Neither one of us knows exactly what the future holds so lets just wait and see.

LOL, they are totally ignoring you D-Bag! No ONe cares about what your dumb 14 year old ass has to say! LMAO!

@Nate Dunlevy Without going through the point by point on words exchanged. Let me say this. Did my last post have a lil attitude? Sure, it did. Guilty as charged. It was only after you got pissed cause I didn't want to talk off line and basically said everything I think I know is crap, I've been wrong about everything I've ever said, and this was all an attempt by a very desperate, grossly misinformed fan. "It's amazing you can use that type of language to attack my certainty without having the slightest idea about what I know or how I know it". Exactly, I was thinking the exact same thing after reading some of your comments. As far as the rest of the argument goes, my main point is that this situation isn't static. It has moving parts. In Dec when the Dr. announced the fusion was "firmly fixated" it wasn't an all clear. Manning was allowed to ramp up his rehab but he still had certain restrictions. This report was based off a recent Dr visit and he no longer has any restrictions,which is a change. So if you're right and nothing has changed since Dec then when Irsay says this is still a safety issue first then he kinda has to be lying. When he makes comments like this has never happened before. He's lying. Kuhursky just reported that Chris Weinke had a very similar injury,nerve damage and all, in college. I think everyone understands that this is a performance issue and not an issue of safety, but that is still what Irsay has tried to portray. I am very aware of the situation between the May and Sep surgery. In the May surgery they most likely took a portion of the disk to release the pressure from the nerve. It sounds like Manning had a setback while rehabing from that first surgery. And yes, it sounds like the nerve was damaged even further because of that. But at that point they were still learning the extent of the damage. There were alot more unknowns back in July than there is today or even in Dec. This is exactly why they would air on the side of caution after the fusion. It was made public that Manning could damage his shoulder and elbow if he didn't have enough strength in his tricep to throw without changing his mechanics. The worst possibly scenario would be the nerve was damaged to the point where it wasn't firing and his tricep was consequently paralyzed and in atrophy. I've only tried to give evidence that this is not the case, but all your hearing is blah, blah, blah. What I said above about nerve regeneration is 100% accurate. What you said about the rapid changing scenario was wrong. You still continue to try to explain that this is about his nerve. Dude! I know! That's the thing. I've never tried to put a # on his odds to return. You have. I never said that I knew 100% of the story. Your certainty makes me think you think you do. Nobody knows. That is my point. There are plenty of reasons to be optimistic. That's what I've been selling all along, optimism. You've been selling certainty. I'll respond to the rest in a few, I have some things to do.

@Peyton for President@Nate Dunlevy Dude it takes 5 seconds to create a gmail account that you can use for nothing other than communicating with Nate. You don't even have to use your real name.

@Peyton for President You assumed it was a media source (which I find insulting given the nature of my claims). You assumed I was "too close to the situation to see clearly" (which is completely ridiculous given the actual truth). You said I was 'eating BS Irsay was shoveling".

If you don't see why I find those things insulting, I don't know what to say.

Then there's this:

"Oh right Irsay isn't "that guy" He doesn't have the savy to spin this situation at all. (rolls eyes, shakes head, walks away)"

It's amazing that you can use such language to attack my certainty without having the slightest idea what I know or how I know it.

You've painted me as naive or easily duped without having any clue as to why I've said the things I've said. You just assume I can't possibly have any information to invalidate your claims, which I find insulting, considering there is already plenty of information out there that does so.

Let me put you on to something. BEFORE Manning had his September surgery, what was happening to him physically because of his work outs? Do you remember? He was hurting himself. He was actually doing damage to his back and putting his elbow and shoulder at risk trying to rehab when his arm wasn't properly responding.

Flash forward to this month and Irsay is talking about Manning's health. You ASSUME he was talking about post-fusion neck issues. You call Irsay a liar because the doctors say that's not an issue. You've completely forgotten the actual reason Manning had the surgery in the first place.

You say nonsense things like, "they wouldn't have cleared him to throw if there was atrophy" blah blah blah blah. When in reality it already happened once. They've been through this with Peyton. He almost hurt himself very badly trying to rehab when his arm wasn't responding. That's public knowledge (John Clayton reported it), but you don't want to see it.

Take a step back and ask yourself if you've really done enough research into specifically what was happening to Peyton BEFORE the neck fusion. You'll find more clues there than you will wasting your time on studying his surgery.

Maybe, just maybe, you should open yourself up to the possibility that there's no game or agenda here and that the Colts are being way more honest about this than Peyton is. Consider that for awhile and ask yourself what kinds of things would be said and done if Manning was the one pulling the snow job, and not the Colts.

@Nate Dunlevy I've tried to stay specific to the topic being discussed, point by point. I've tried to not get personal. I really have. Despite kinda feeling like you were baiting me to look like an ass by doing so. Just my perspective. I could be wrong. I don't understand what is ridiculous about my assumptions. You said you had inside info. I called it a source or sources. I assumed it was someone who you trust because of your conviction. I'm just going off what you've said. I never made any assumptions about you mental state. Really? I really don't understand why we can't disagree without being mortal enemies. I know I was a real a-hole the last time we had this go round. I'm willing to admit that, but I don't feel that I've done anything wrong this time. I've tried to leave emotions out of it. I really don't know what else to say. That's just how I feel.

@Platinum I don't think I went from being someone that is universally wrong and desperately trying to misinform fans to being someone that Nate was going to share inside info with. I see your point though. It is a bit like rams bashing heads at this point. I really don't have much more to say anyway. You are right. Time will tell. I guess I'll put my sword away........For now. lol

@DougEngland They are fair questions and I'm willing to answer them. Write me about it. I'll be happy to tell you.

What's not fair is his ridiculous guesses about what I know and how I know what I know and his assumptions about my mental state.

@Nate Dunlevy Nate, you know I have the utmost respect for you. Utmost. And since I somewhat feel responsible for starting this current thread, I would just like to say that I appreciate PfP keeping this discussion public. I am sorry you have found what PfP has said insulting and wrong,. But at least as far as this thread has gone, I have agreed with every point PfP has made and every question he has asked was one that arose in my mind as well.

@Peyton for President You are insulting and wrong. I've given you every chance to find out the truth. You don't want it.

So be it.

@Platinum@Peyton for President@Nate Dunlevy i disagree

pfp is being delusional and letting his hero worship get the better of him. it is clear as day what is happening. it is going to be funny watching pfp be so wrong though. no way that dude has the stones to admit he was wrong

@Peyton for President@Nate Dunlevy Honestly I don't know why you're both still going at this. 3 months isnt that far away, we'll see who's right then. I've said my bit, I think 18's done in Indy and I'll be surprised if he plays 2012. Two very divergent views from two people who love 18, whats the mudslinging for? PfP, If Nate says email him for more info, dude do so! It doesnt take 2mins to make up a fake email address allowing you maintain your privacy. Nate, if PfP believes strongly in his line of thinking, let him be...... I ink Colts fans are smart enough to make their own judgement and most expect 18's getting cut anyway..... Additionally like I said starting off, its not like the truth is going to stay hidden much longer. Time respects no one, not even the greats. We'll see where Peyton is soon enough.

Sheath your swords guys, please.

@Nate Dunlevy My email address is my full name and birthday. So it is personal. I'm not on facebook or twitter. I don't even own a cell phone. I get emails on my Ipod so when I'm home or somewhere there is wifi I get them immediately. The only people that have my email are either friends or companies I have some sort of business relationship with. You don't fall into either of those categories. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. The questions I ask like "How can you be so sure"? are the rhetorical brand. The answer is you can't be. You have been the only person I have heard from that seems 100% certain about this situation. I don't care how many different media contacts you have, and your proximity to Lucas Oil Field doesn't give you a better understanding of the situation than anyone else. Based on some of your comments I think you may be a little to close to see things clearly. I know who isn't your source. Peyton and his doctors. Ya know, the people that actually matter. As far as Irsay's comments about being a unique situation. He also said this has never happened before, which was a bold face lie. He also said that this was a safety issue, which you claim hasn't been an issue since Dec. So who is lying, Irsay or you? Irsay hasn't exactly been a straight shooter about this whole situation. So keep eating the BS he is shoveling. Oh right Irsay isn't "that guy" He doesn't have the savy to spin this situation at all. (rolls eyes, shakes head, walks away)

@Peyton for President@Nate Dunlevy lol. you give that info but yet an email address is off limits?

i understand that you have a strange attachment to manning, pfp but it is probably time for you to just face the fact that are put in front of you.

as nate said, everything is out there for you to come to a reasonable conclusion to what will happen and to what is going on. there is some comment about a forest and trees that probably applies

@Peyton for President Giving me an email address is hardly sharing personal information.

That's fine. If you don't want to discuss it privately, I don't care. Stop asking me how I know what I know then. Stop assuming you know how I have my information. Stop arguing with me.

I have very good, sound reasons to dismiss most of what is coming from the Manning camp (which includes Mortensen, BTW). Your interpretation of who is doing what to whom and why is just way off.

I've explained it as accurately as possible. 95% of it is already out there in the public reports. The little that is only relevant if you believe that Manning's camp is the one that should be listened to and trusted in this.

The bottom line is that when Irsay says things like "Manning's condition is unique", he's telling the truth. Most of what you think you know about his condition just isn't relevant. Irsay already said that, and I believe him for good reason. Again, the truth is out there and has been spoken in plain English. Most of this story isn't about who has the hidden truth, but rather who to believe. The Colts are being awkward and weird in the way they are communicating, but there's way way more truth coming from that camp than from 18's.

Manning failed his last physical right after the season. His own agent won't say how well he's throwing. No one will. Your assumptions about what they would have cleared him to do and what that means for nerve regeneration are just wrong.

Everything you posit about the Colts and their motives in this is also just flat wrong. I don't have one source one time, but have heard from several people consistently for months.

I've reported the vast majority of it. The little I've held back, I have reason for doing so. It's extra stuff that isn't necessary to the story, but does refute things you've guessed at.

I stand by what I've said. Nothing significant has changed in Manning's situation. The story this week was confirmation of that, not refutation of it. There's no reason for optimism at this juncture. The Colts (specifically Irsay) would love to keep him if he was going to be healthy, but there is no way to know if he is nor is there any reason at all to assume that his recovery is probable.

Peyton Manning knows full well he won't be playing for the Colts and is doing everything he can to set himself up for a job with another team. You may find that far fetched, but it's the truth. He wants Irsay to release him immediately, so he can control the story of his health 100%. He already got one NFL team to sign him without a physical and he can do it again. IF you want more of an explanation of that or find it hard to accept, you know where to reach me.

@Nate Dunlevy It's difficult because I don't exchange personal information with people online. It's as simple as that. I appreciate you offering your time, but I didn't understand why we should talk in private when we can talk here. I've been open and honest about my personal life and experiences, and how they relate to this situation. I'm not giving anyone my email. Nothing personal. It would be the same for anyone. My real name is Shawn. I'm a 30 year old male. I live in Loves Park IL. I'm 6'3'' 215. I'm a gym rat. I love playing basketball. I'm about to walk out the door to coach my 14 year old step son's team.I have no problem volunteering info like that. My email address and banking info are off limits. Sorry if that seems snarky.

@Nate Dunlevy@DougEngland@OttoKnowBetter i agree with you natedog

manning is too far away to give him the cash.

@Peyton for President Whatever. I asked you to send me an email. Why that's so difficult, I don't know.

You aren't poising people's minds. I never said anything like that.

I'm trying to be nice to you. I don't have any idea why you are being snarky when I made a simple request.

@Nate Dunlevy Lol So that was why you wanted to chat off line. So I can't poision the minds of "real" Colts fans? Isn't this the point of the comments section of this site. For people to debate and voice their opinions?

@Nate Dunlevy Great point bye point analysis of my comments. Now I'm sold. You sure do make a strong case there Nate. What's it like always being right all the time anyway?

@Peyton for President The reason I don't choose to end it is because I hate to see someone desperately misinforming other fans.

@Peyton for President

You have made a lot of assumptions. They are almost universally wrong.

@Nate Dunlevy There is no need to have this convo offline. I stopped trying to change your mind a hundred posts ago. You heard that Manning couldn't throw well back in Dec from someone you trust. Someone that has been reliable in the past. You made up your mind over a month ago, but this is a changing situation and you don't seem willing to admit that. When you make statements like the one above I'm going to respond. My posts on this matter are to provoke the thinking of other readers, not change your mind. That would be the only point of an off line convo. You could end this at any point if that is what you choose.

@Peyton for President Like I said, if you want to continue this discussion off line. I'm happy to do it.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

@Nate Dunlevy In general you are right. This isn't a rapid change scenario. Although if a nerve has been damaged to the point where the muscle goes into atrophy, a patient could see no progress and then almost magically or miraculously the nerve begins to fire and the muscle begins to function. This can literally happen overnight. Same thing with weakness and numbness. You could be dealing with those symptoms, seeing slow progress over weeks or months and then all of the sudden it's gone. This is just the nature of nerve regeneration. Working hard is very relevent as well. It's very important to keep rehabing to condition the muscles being affected. If you didn't you'd have a long road to get back to your previous condition even after the nerve fully heals. The rehab doesn't speed up nerve regeneration but it is crucial to ones overall recovery. As far as a timetable goes. I haven't actually heard anything from the Manning camp as far as a timetable. Didn't the May date come from Adam and Mort or did I miss something? It sounded to me like that was them speculating. Nothing about a timetable was in the Drs release. I heard Conden say he would probably be better from a performance stand point in a couple months, but still purely speculation. Please for the sake of both of our argument let's not even get into what his agent says. If there is anyone that I'll take what what they say with a grain of salt, it's a players agent. And dude that is not at all how this convo has gone. I've given scientific evidence to back up my argument. I've given a timeline of events and related my own personal experience to help explain my position. It's those little mental jabs that got us sparring last time. I'm gonna stay on the highroad. Just saying.

@DougEngland He was never thinking "If he can get healthy" because that was NEVER the most realistic scenario.

No one over there has had any reason to be confident of his eventual return to football.

The reason they have never been willing to consider trading the pick is because Manning is nowhere close enough to healthy to allow them to consider it.

I think the Colts would LOVE it if Peyton retired. Absolutely. That again, is because of where he is physically.

It all goes back to where he is physically.

@Nate Dunlevy Nate, here is where I somewhat disagree with you.

You have convinced me that Irsay really saw nothing wrong with having Peyton and Luck on the team. While we both know that is insanity, there are others who have expressed that same sentiment, so I can't say it is just Irsay being illogical. BUT, at the very least it does show Irsay's thinking on the subject. He was never thinking I have the best QB of this generation, and if he can get healthy we can have a great 4 or 5 year run until he retires. Instead, he was thinking I'm going to hedge my bets and never be without a potential franchise QB for the next 15 years.

Next, I am not going to argue how far along Peyton is in his recovery. But we all agree it is not about the neck, it is about nerve regeneration. Yet, Irsay has continued to play up that on field safety issue. You may disagree, but you will never convince me that the reason he has done that is because when he cuts Peyton, he wants to be able to play the "I was just thinking of his safety" card.

Finally, I know you will say Irsay loves Peyton, And I'm sure that is (or at least was) true. But Irsay has made his decision to move on. And now, you can not convince me that Irsay wants Peyton to ever get healthy enough to play football. Because when/if he goes to another team and plays like his old self, it is a PR nightmare for Irsay and really puts incredible pressure on Luck..

"Honestly I haven't heard anyone on either side of the fence speak with such certainty. Manning's recent workouts haven't even been at the Colts complex. So how can you be 100% certain nothing has changed"

Because this isn't a rapid change scenario. It's not a question of anything but nerve regeneration. Where he was a month ago was so very very very far away, that there's simply not that much that can change in a month. This isn't a miracle healing scenario. It's a long slow journey for which there's no short cut and working hard is completely irrelevant.

Both side have said it. Manning's side JUST said it. Manning's been playing a spin game for a long time now, and his side just put a May date out there randomly. That's a long, long way away, and that's coming from HIS side.

Send me an email if you want. This discussion in this forum is always going to go back to the same thing. I'm saying one thing and you are saying, "How do you know." As I've said, it's not hard to reach my conclusions based on the information that's out there. You have a whole set of assumptions that are just wrong.

@Peyton for President "Honestly I haven't heard anyone on either side of the fence speak with such certainty. Manning's recent workouts haven't even been at the Colts complex. So how can you be 100% certain nothing has changed"

Because this isn't a rapid change scenario. It's not a question of anything but nerve regeneration. Where he was a month ago was so very very very far away, that there's simply not that much that can change in a month. This isn't a miracle healing scenario. It's a long slow journey for which there's no short cut and working hard is completely irrelevant.

Both side have said it. Manning's side JUST said it. Manning's been playing a spin game for a long time now, and his side just put a May date out there randomly. That's a long, long way away, and that's coming from HIS side.

Peyton is throwing the team under the bus, not the other way around.

This is all about Peyton's health. You can believe whatever you want, but the dude is not healthy and the best evidence of all is that with a three minute tape of him throwing, all this would go away.

The only reason that tape doesn't exist is that he can't produce it.

Even if the Colts didn't have Luck, they wouldn't be paying Manning's bonus in his current state. He's not close enough to take that chance on even if he's the ONLY option. His return is neither close enough or certain enough to do so.

You can believe whatever you want. Irsay has no problem with Luck and Manning on the same team (which is insane). Irsay was the LAST guy to realize Peyton was just too far away to bring back. He didn't want to admit the truth.

I don't believe one single thing coming out of Peyton's mouth about this situation for a variety of reasons. The number one reason is that he has full power to say and show whatever he wants. He has had every opportunity to show he's actually close, but instead chose to release 2 month old news that's completely misleading.

Think about that. If he was close, why would he do that? All he'd have to do was have a doctor talk about how close he was. Instead, they talked about stuff we've known for months. It's all spin.

If you'd like, send me an email.

@Nate Dunlevy@DougEngland@OttoKnowBetter I understand its business but that's kinda shady.

@Nate Dunlevy You really are making some pretty bold statements with some of these comments. Honestly I haven't heard anyone on either side of the fence speak with such certainty. Manning's recent workouts haven't even been at the Colts complex. So how can you be 100% certain nothing has changed? You aren't working out with Peyton so how can you be so sure? How are so quick to throw Peyton under the bus? Call him a lier. Question the mans integrity. Insinuate that he is going to try to play even though it obvious to all those around him that he can't, and he is going to embarrass himself with another team. I just don't get it. It's not that his nerve hasn't regenerated at all, it hasn't fully regenerated. There's a huge difference. Peyton's gone. Everyone knows it, and most reasonable people understand Irsay has the right to make the decision. I think he is making a huge mistake and has handled it very poorly, but I know he has the right to do whatever he pleases. You just seem to be playing defense for the Colts, really hard too. Maybe it didn't look too promising in Dec and Irsay didn't hesitate to pull the trigger on the rebuld. I'll never agree with the timing but I understand the decision. But you can't be so certain that nothing has changed. Peyton is the only one who knows how he feels. Whether he is going to be ready or not. He seems pretty confident and who the hell am I to call him a lier? Two factors are determining Peyton's fate. Andrew Luck and Peyton's health. Which one weighs heavier is debatable, but it isn't soley based on health. It's just not and it's obvious. I think you're really stretching your argument saying that this is all to trick another team into picking up Peyton. Peyton is going to have to be cleared by team doctors to play. He's going to have to workout for teams. The media and fans aren't going to force any owner into signing an unhealthy Peyton Manning. The decision to sign with another team will be based on his performance at workouts and ability to be cleared by that teams doctors. Nothing else will be a factor. Like I said, you're really reaching with that one.

@Platinum@DougEngland@OttoKnowBetter I know he's so far away for multiple reasons. Absolutely nothing has changed. Even in the Mortensen story, they were saying it could be May before they know anything about the nerves.

This whole thing has nothing to do with the Colts. They know the truth. It's all about convincing some other team to take an ill-advised chance on Manning. They know Indy knows he's too hurt to risk, so they want a fast release to give them more time to convince a team to sign him, because ordinarily, no one would in his present condition. If they can spin and control the story however, a team might be pressed into it by their fans.

@Nate Dunlevy@DougEngland@OttoKnowBetter You know more than you're letting on then DZ? How are you so sure he is so far away? You sound supremely confident about your assertions, I respect it if you can't say more in order to protect your source.

Also if you're correct, then what is the Manning camp playing at?

@Peyton for President@DougEngland I know the debate :D There's a lot of love for 18, just two sides with very opposing views. I like the respect shown overall despite the headbanging, you've been a top chap for sure. Respect that.

@DougEngland lol Yea that was just a funny way to compliment you. It just seems like I don't even need to comment sometimes cause you already said it. There are a few fellows around here that I really like. I'm not proud of the direction I took that one particular debate. That's not gonna happen again. I think Nate has a source that he trusts that has told him the things he states. That much is obvious. I just disagree and my confidence on the issue has only grown over the last few days. I'll still debate but I'm not gonna let it get personal.

@Peyton for President Well thank you. (Although about being seperated at birth, I am a 6'2" 190 pound runner whose music tastes tend to Classic Rock.)

Sorry that you and my main man Nate get into it... especially since I always think in matters like this that Nate knows something he is not telling us.

Like I've said before, you sure do make good arguments and I very much want you to be right.