The Indianapolis Colts' march towards their "New Era" begins tonight with the 1st round of the 2012 NFL Draft. Chat with Colts Authority.com as the drama plays out!
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Going to make a new thread soon for the 2nd-3rd rounds. Hope you'll join us not only for the Open Thread, but for our live "radio" coverage, too. We'll be going from 7:30 - 9:30pm ET. Thanks!
Alright I Need help understanding something.. I thought we would have the first pick in every round. But we pick behind the rams from here on after
From what Pagano and Grigson said last night, I am think the pick will most likely be on offense, since they want to put pieces around luck for him to succeed and want to protect him. I think Glenn is #1 option, Fleener #2 and Randle #3
Interested to see who trades up for Jenkins, wish we could have grabbed him at the top of the 3rd, but does not look like that is going to happen, I would not mind trading the 3rd and a future 4th to move up to the middle of the 2nd and grab him.
I didn't get to watch much of last night... who has the better coverage or if its a wash, who has the least annoying commercials?
Is everyone here at least under the mindset that we have to draft a TE at some point? I'm still torn on Fleener, Glenn, or Worthy. It's good to have choices, especially on projected 1st round picks who slipped a bit, but damn. This pick will REALLY help determine which way Grigson and Co. want to take the Colts.
Also, did anyone else notice the phone Luck had? You'd think in being the #1 pick he would have something... better than a flip phone, haha.
@TheGreatMisdirect Yup they need to grab one in this draft, and yeah it is just one season, if one of the later TE picks do not pan out we try again next year. Also I think @GregC said something about receiving TE's well that is pretty much all there is in this draft, they are very abundant. difference between them and Fleener, Fleener ran a little faster and had more productivity, or played against harder competition than most.
There are enough receiving type receivers that have came out that have not really amounted to much, and I think a lot has to do with system, those that typically go to run oriented teams do not really end up standing out, Coffman, Randolph, Olsen, Carlson, Kellen Davis, Gresham, Kendricks, Jared Cook, Keller.
All these guys, some have had okay season but they are really not with pass heavy teams and their skill set is not able to be used to its potential. Fleener could easily turn into one of these guys, and that is my reservation about taking him at 34, he still might turnout good if he can improve his blocking,(like most of the guys on this list are trying to) and route running.
Won't be mad if we take him but it would not hurt to go in another direction as well, and yup if we don't grab him, I am sure we will pick up atleast 1 in the draft, and more as UDFA's.
@TheGreatMisdirect Laura (LovinBlue) said that he specifically uses an older phone so that he can't tweet or facebook, etc...
As for the TE question: At some point (maybe not even this year) they will have to get a receiving TE. It's just the way the NFL works now, you want that matchup against LBs and Safeties. But they have so many needs that BAP should be the order of the day, and at this point I think the three favorites are Upshaw, Glenn, and Fleener.
The Colts have a lot of priorities coming in to this draft. They need to improve the defense pretty much everywhere, including adding playmakers in the secondary, finding a starting caliber NT and finding guys to play 3-4 linebacker. They need to find solid targets for Andrew Luck. But I'm of the opinion that the only thing the Colts NEED to do this off season is protect their franchise QB. The other stuff can all wait if necessary. Obviously if you can get multiple things done this year, you do, but if you have to choose just one, you make sure that Luck is touched as little as possible by opposing defenses next year. To me everything else takes a back seat.
Unlike some people, I'm not sold on the Colts new line. The jury is still way out on Ijalana and I'm not certain that Justice is really the answer on the right side. Reitz might develop in to an average guard, but he's not the guy you want protecting your #1 overall pick. Even if all three of those guys pan out, I'm not confident that the Colts have the depth to fill in if a starter goes down. That being said, that leaves only 2 spots on the line that are really known quantities. If I'm Grigson, I'm not at all comfortable throwing Luck behind that patchwork line and hoping for the best. The Colts need more legit talent up there. I think if the Rams don't take Cordy Glenn, the Colts should. He's a top 15 prospect in this draft and offensive linemen have been slipping in a deep draft for the position. It might not be the "sexy" pick (Fleener), but I think it's the strongest one. You get a guy that can fill in pretty much anywhere on the line, taking over for any weak links or potentially start day one.
If you can sit back and say you're honestly comfortable that Reitz, Ijalana and Justice will ALL pan out, and that Linkenbach and McGlynn are sufficient fill ins should a starter go down, then sure, maybe Fleener makes sense. Even then, I'm not sold on his skill set. I don't think a lack of targets will "hurt Luck's development" as I don't see how that's even possible. Quarterbacks develop through work and study, not because they have great targets. Finding an open guy and getting the ball there does not change no matter how bad the targets are. The Colts absolutely must make sure that Luck is protected first and foremost.
One, you do not build an all-star draft in 1 draft.
Two, Dwayne Allen is a more rounded TE than Coby Fleener and Fleener is a weakside run blocker more like Dallas Clark. So, the dearth of TEs is the reason Fleener is even talked about this high. In other drafts, he would be late second round to early third round. Stephen Hill is a great fit for the Arians offense but there is much greater value in Glenn.
Three, Saints have shown that with Carl Nicks, you can protect your QB with a good pocket and let him distribute the ball to any number of targets you get. Yes, Nicks was a fourth rounder but if the Pats have shown anything, investing in early O-line picks help us rely less on a QB getting rid of the ball super quick like Peyton, and while plan A on O (say pass) does not work, it gives you flexibility to go to plan B (say run) with a versatile O-line, just not one built for run blocking.
Four, if we pass up on a middle of first round OG talent in Cordy Glenn, the Ravens at No.35 would be glad to have him because they dont let need drive BPA. Cordy Glenn, with his size, is our version of Carl Nicks. Carl Nicks was a 4th rounder but Cordy Glenn has 50 starts at Georgia, 18 of them at left tackle in a tough SEC.
@chad72 Agree 1000% percent. I like Hill and Randle, and Fleener would be the type of TE we saw in Clark, just bigger and possibly faster, but football games are won and lost in the trenches. Build up the offensive line and you get time for Luck to throw, you keep him healthy and you improve the running game to help out the offense all in one swoop. No other position short of TE can give you that value, and Fleener is not a blocking TE. I don't buy the idea that Luck needs to have his targets right away. If I'm Grigson, I'd mine the later rounds (maybe Egnew in the 4th?) for a decent TE prospect, with the idea that you'll get a stud in later years. Keeping Luck healthy is job one.
See, I understand all the Fleener love. Deficient TE position, everyone has their TE toy and we need ours, chemistry with Luck but if the Pats have shown anything, investing in O-line pays off when you have to play different styles – pass or run oriented O. That is why my case is a strong case for Cordy Glenn. If he had not dropped, it would have been different. We lost Mike Pollak, we have Joe Reitz at LG and Mike McGlynn at RG and we have a chance to upgrade one of the OG positions big time. Plus, an OL will see all downs for the O as compared to a TE that is at best a weakside run blocker. If we are going skill position, it at least has to be an outside WR that will play many more downs.
Also, since we signed and paid Samson Satele and have Jake Kirkpatrick and A.Q.Shipley on our roster, we have 3 potential centers, hence Konz makes less sense than Cordy Glenn, IMO. The OG is the one that needs talent infusion and no one would have dreamed Cordy Glenn would be here.
@chad72 Don't get me wrong, I get it too. He's got Clark's athleticism and he's the kind of big target that Manning never have and we ALL thought he deserved. And all that is true and when you add in the Stanford connection, it seems like a no brainer. And with the emergence of the Pats' TEs and Jimmy Graham, the TE is indeed the shiny toy that everyone wants to have. And so do I. But I think that Arians's system demands a guy that's a stronger blocker. If Fleener were around in the third, I'd be all for it.
For the limited downs that Fleener will play, we can match that production with a receiving TE like Michael Egnew or Ladarius Green in later rounds. No one thought Antonio Gates and Jimmy Graham would be what they were when they were UDFA and 3rd round signings.
@chad72 After reading this I'm leaning more towards getting a lineman over picking fleener or upshaw
Everything changes if the Rams grab Glenn. But the Rams, in all likelihood, since they have tried out Stephen Hill, will go with him, IMO. For giving up on Cordy Glenn and moving out of No.34, I would do that only if another team offers a future 1st rounder since we will be giving up on first round talent in Glenn. Rams go Hill or let the mercurial Finnegan groom Janoris Jenkins (I can see that as a good fit, LOL)
Rams have 3 of the first 13 picks in the 2nd round and with all the talent left the will come out very nice, I think they will grab Glenn/Martin, Randle/Hill/Jefferies, and possibly Jenkins, add that they grabbed Brockers in the 1st they are looking really good in the rebuilding department.
@paulcareyjr I'm hoping they go wide receiver given that the Jags jumped them to grab Blackmon (who I think is clearly who they wanted there). But they have been working the draft exceptionally well. I hope the Colts get the chance to do something similar next year and secure a future first rounder from an average to bad team.
Luck jerseys are on sale already in the pro shop. I ordered 3 for me family. http://tinyurl.com/6ms3rjt
I hope we go in the direction of adding a receiving threat at 34. I really love Fleener, though I understand his blocking isn't quite where it should be. I think Hill would be the second best option, though honestly, I would rather add a TE early, as there are good targets like Broyles and others in later rounds at the WR position, and I just don't think the pool of TEs is as deep. There's just no way we can rely on Eldridge to be a receiving TE.
One last thing, the Rams did one He!! of a job with the draft today, very impressive, I hope we can do something like that next year if we end up with a early pick.
Yes, and no. They did lose out on Floyd and Claiborne. Unless they plan to take a flier on Jenkins and hope it works out, they would have lost out on first round WR and CB talent, IMO. They did get first round DL talent in Brockers, good pick for them.
Pats have shown that stockpiling multiple picks may not always work, it is like an appreciated stock that you do not cash in when you keep trading back :). Finally, the Pats learned their lesson and cashed in on both first round picks.
Last thing Jags and Titans both got young explosive Wr's, I could see us either trading back into the 2nd to grab a CB or making sure we grab one in the 3rd...
Alright I was all hyped up about fleener before.. but now that courtney upshaw has fallen to us, I mean we could use 280lb linebacker in the 3-4.. especially as we will need to replace freeney and mathis eventually.
@ABlueColt God, I'd normally have loved this... but targets for Luck take priority.
That pains me. I'd have loved to have gotten successors to either Freeney or Mathis, and you can always use competent pass rushers... but dammit. If it were me, I wouldn't be able to justify that pick.
Makes me sad too. Like I said earlier, Upshaw specifically mentioned admiring the Colts. I'd love to have fulfilled his dream. But other positional needs are far more glaring, plus I don't see him as BPA at pick 34. Not with all the receiving targets passed up on in the first round.
@ABlueColt maybe at LB, he needs to work on his agility, He is a tough tough guy though, and he will make plays for you...
I think the Colts would be silly not to take Cordy Glenn. Protecting their first round investment should be priority one right now, and I'm not sold on Ijalana or Justice playing as starters next year. Cordy Glenn can fill in at guard or tackle wherever he's needed. If both Justice and Ijalana pan out, I wouldn't mind a starting line of Costanzo, Glenn, Satele, Ijalana and Justice. Konz wouldn't be a bad pick, either. I think they can wait on OLBs, and I think Fleener is overrated and not a great fit for the system (not a good blocker). Glenn or Hill/Randle seem like the most logical choices. I'm not in the camp that thinks that Luck needs to get his #1 WR right now in order to be successful - I think protecting him is MUCH more important.
There's plenty of guards who would be decent values in the later rounds - Washington, Nix, Kelemente, Vlachos if you want to try to convert a center - but receiving TE's drop off sharply after Fleener and Dwaye Allen. Passing on Fleener would be a blow to Luck's development. You don't have to pass on a good receiving target in order to protect him. You can have both, but you don't do it by passing on the receiver to fill a hole that can be filled with a later round pick.
Skill player targets are more important. Not guards. While I like Glenn and Konz, I don't like them at the expense of targets for Luck. And nobody after Allen is good enough to receive, so the priority is clear: Fleener over Glenn. Despite my desire to have a nice, big fat guy on the O-line.
@AJ_ I'm not sure how you can hinge Luck's development on one guy or how to justify that targets, or a lack of affects a QB's development at all. With all due respect of course, I get why people are enamored with Fleener. I was too, until I gave the matter more thought. Arians's system is power run heavy. The mobile stretch plays of old are gone. In the Colts old system, a receiving threat who is a sub par blocker could be more useful, moving around making cut blocks or pulling. But Arians's system favors in-line blockers across the board, including at TE. Fleener immediately becomes a liability in the running game.
@AJ_ They will help Luck have time to get it to whatever target, and really there are a ton of WR TE's in the draft left. Egnew, Hanna, Adrian, Charles, etc that is what they know how to do best. Fleener would not be a bad pick but I would not say that he is clear cut at the top of the Colts draft board.
@AJ_ no disrespect taken. I will just add a couple of things, if you look at the TE's that were dominant this year they all play in offenses that have top QB's and are pass oriented teams, a lot of shotgun and spread formations, Finley, Gronk, Hernandez, guy from NO. Fleeners affect on a team that is not set up like that will not be as big a factor. Glenn will be on the field every offensive play and not only offers a good O-lineman, but he also is versatile and can play multiple positions on the line. He will have an influence on every play compared to Fleener who will have a limited impact on running plays due to his blocking.
I think Fleener could turnout to be a wonderful pick that turns out to be more valueable than Glenn, but to do this he will have to improve his blocking and route running.
He does not make sharp cuts, he has long speed, not really a guy that will be able to separate against NFL talent, I just think he is a bigger project than most think he is.
Positives for me, good size and vertical, good long speed, knows how to use his body to shield defenders from making plays on the ball.
Weaknesses for me, route running, separation, blocking.
@paulcareyjr Before responding, I do want to say that I respect everyone's opinion in this blog; there are a bunch of smart guys here. So I say this with respect, not a desire to aggravate, but I must respectfully disagree: I fear that settling for a later round TE would be a mistake, a bad mistake even. There's sufficient blocking help later in the draft to keep Luck upright, plus as CA writer Nate Dunleavy has pointed out in his former blog, people tend to place too much value on offensive line players. I don't go as far as Nate does, but I basically share his direction if not his magnitude of belief: O-line players are far more fungible than skill position players, also more important, and by my judgement only DeCastro would've been worth passing Fleener up on. Glenn would not, and I say this even though I would've loved to have a great big wall like him on the line.
I don't know if he's the clear cut top of the entire Colts board - though draftniks like Rob Rang among others obviously don't agree, I've got at least Randle and Sanu up there, and I can understand Hill even though I'm not as sure about him - but I've got him higher than any other offensive linesmen left.
Again, I say this with respect. I see your argument, but my analysis has led me in a different direction.
yeah I have similar feelings, I do not think we can go wrong with any of those guys, Hill scares me some because he is such a project and he is working with a inexperienced QB which could stunt his growth, Glenn is a pick that will pay off for many years to come whether it be at RT or G, Knoz would be alright but I think I prefer Glenn over him, I would not count out Upshaw either, I think he is a 10yr starter, and he seems like a Pagano type guy as well.
Like you said Fleener is a good one dimensional player, but he will really need to add a blocking and route running dimension to his game to validate him getting picked by the Colts with the system they are planning on running.
@paulcareyjr Fleener needs to add a route running dimension to his game? But route running is specifically one of his noted strengths, not weaknesses.
I would've loved Upshaw coming to Indy - he specifically mentioned loving the Colts and admiring Dwight Freeney - but there are too many other priorities to fill with players who are the proper value at 34 to pick him. With Mathis and (for now) Freeney being there, Upshaw would unfortunately be a luxury. Which makes me sad; I'd have loved to see either him or Curry get picked for the Colts, but I don't see either being available after 34. And I wouldn't use the 34th on either, much as I'd like to.
@AJ_ From watching tape, his route running is not sharp at all, he rounds a lot of his routes, and is able to use his deceptive speed to create separation on longer routes that require cuts, but that will not be as easy to do in the league.
This is what I saw from him when I watched tape, but maybe you see something different, and that is all right. 5 hrs and counting.
So, Cordy Glenn, Courtney Upshaw, Peter Konz, Jerel Worthy, Coby Fleener, Jonathan Martin. Not a bad looking pool of players.
@thejoshbaker too many good players at this point. I'm torn. Also: Fleener Fleener Fleener Fleener Fleener Fleener Fleener Fleener
@GregC I think I'd rather have Egnew in the fourth than Fleener in the second. There's too much value here to blow a pick on a one dimensional TE, even if he's really good at that one dimension. Save the TE pick for a deeper class and a better player.
@thejoshbaker don't forget the WR's Hill and Randle
So Ram need a WR right, humm, yeah Fleener will be there, I hope if we select him he reallly adds some size and becomes a better blocker, Colts have to be happy that so much value is left on the board....